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by JoshNJ
on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:38 am |
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libertarian99 wrote: In general, money has to change hands in order for a tax to be successfully collected. Otherwise, there is no paper or electronic trail to show how much the tax should be, and if you don't know what the tax amount is, you can't collect a tax.
I agree, it doesn't make sense to assess a tax for something you are not selling. I think the dissent in those cases make an excellent argument about the powers of Congress going over the top. But the theory in these cases is that loss of volume is causing sales to drop. If something affects the tax collector's bottom line, they will eventually pay attention and find a way to correct the stream of commerce.
Quote: The one exception I can think of is property taxes, but in that case there is an official assessment value on the property which remains relatively stable over time.
Yea, property is another one. Determining the market value for tax purposes is as mysterious to me as calculating one's credit score.
Quote: There is no way to assess a tax on anything people grow in their own garden for their own consumption without incurring more costs than its worth. No one in their right mind would cooperate with such a tax, so in order to collect anything at all, they would have to locate each individual garden and prove how many plants were grown, what the yield was, etc.
It would be impossible to do this with individuals, but they have the power under the commerce clause to regulate activity that tries to undercut a commodity. And apparently it can apply to personal consumption under Wickard v. Filburn.
Quote: There won't be that many people who have the time, energy and patience to actually follow through with the home growing on a long-term basis, so if the government actually took this asinine step, it would be like searching for a needle in a haystack trying to find anyone to tax.
And you think they have anything better to do with their time than to waste time and taxpayer money to try to collect more taxpayer money? |
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by garhkal
on Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:09 pm |
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| If they made it illegal they would lose a hell of a lot more than just the tax on sales.. All those in the tobacco industry would no longer be paying income/capital gains tax from working (as they won't have a job), all the stores that sell them would go under, so again no taxes there.. |
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by bob_kemp
on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:40 pm |
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Hi --
garhkal, your observation and the other members' comments are all pertinent to the defense against attacks on tobacco use.
I guess this is where I ought to point out that attacks on tobacco aren't exactly a new thing.
I recently posted a History of Tobacco on another forum that I admin on and it seems like about every 50 years for the last 500 years some government or other has attacked tobacco users.
I hesitated to post this link here since it's another forum, but I think now it's incumbant upon us all to refresh ourselves with the actual history of assaults on tobacco.
If you will go here:
http://tobaccotalk.myfastforum.org/index.php
And click History of Tobacco and read it, Chapter 1 to 8, you will see it. It's cyclical. It has always failed. And we should try to analyze why it failed and repeat the same defenses today that worked so many times in the past.
Bob |
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by libertarian99
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:48 am |
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JoshNJ wrote: Libertarian99 wrote: There won't be that many people who have the time, energy and patience to actually follow through with the home growing on a long-term basis, so if the government actually took this asinine step, it would be like searching for a needle in a haystack trying to find anyone to tax.
And you think they have anything better to do with their time than to waste time and taxpayer money to try to collect more taxpayer money?
No matter what other considerations are involved, the government can't afford to spend $100 in order to collect $10. That's why they do things like allow individuals to buy a 3-month supply of drugs through the mail from foreign countries for their own personal use. Regardless of how they feel about pharmaceuticals crossing the border, they can't afford to police all the small packages in order to catch people mail-ordering small amounts of pills for their own use.
Besides that, home growers aren't the ones interfering with trade in tobacco. The lawmakers themselves are doing that, aren't they? Isn't their goal to stamp out the tobacco trade? If the tax collectors have a beef with anyone, it should be with the antismoking movement, whose sole purpose in life is to reduce the collection of tobacco taxes to zero. |
Last edited by libertarian99 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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by gilster
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:46 am |
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libertarian99 wrote:
If the tax collectors have a beef with anyone, it should be with the antismoking movement, whose sole purpose in life is to reduce the collection of tobacco taxes to zero.
I don't know about that....the anti-tobacco crowd opened the flood gates with their scare tactics and talking points to raise the taxes on tobacco far higher than I think any Dictator could wish for....
These guys - antis and gov't - are walking hand in hand in their quest for taxes and lucrative salaries.
Antis will not get paid if everyone quit smoking over night - neither the government receiving those juicy taxes....
They would have to find something else to tax - oh wait - they are working on it....
Global Warming - Carbon Emissions, etc.
As the government moves to shift more burden on the citizens who function in society, cars-homes-manufactured goods - they have found a nice niche to tax - the niche of sin taxation inclusion - ALL
We are all sinners, the PR firms will tout, and will be treated as such...
I wouldn't be surprised if anti-organizations morph into 'green' organizations to ride the wave and help gain those taxes - they are good at scare mongering and shuffling scientific data....
We should all be leery of Cap & Trade (it's income killer shackles)
They will spin it to say that only Big Business will be effected - just like they spun that Big Tobacco would be effected - and everyone cried good! And look where we are now...the consumers....
It's like ACORN, they've been beaten down over the last few months (lost the census gig, funding investigations) but their reach is widespread still - touching many organizations - SEUI, etc.
They aren't going away...
There's too much extortion money involved. |
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by bob_kemp
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:27 am |
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Hi --
I guess I'll add another horror scenario to the mix. How much money do the governments make seizing property and fines on illegal drug users and dealers? Is it possible that making an addictive drug like nictine illegal will drive us all to the black markets and the property seizure laws will enable an even bigger wealth grab than they've gotten so far in taxation of tobacco?
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by runamok
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:30 am |
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gilster wrote: We should all be leery of Cap & Trade
Leery? That's the understatement of the year.
Cap & tax should be fought tooth and nail, to the bitter end. If passed, this legislation will put the United States, and the rest of the world, into a permanent recession/depression.
If passed, it would be such a devastating economic blow that in the future, people would talk in terms of "before the cap" and "after the cap".
It seems that recession IS Obama's economic policy. And I don't say that in jest. I think he sees permanent recession in the U.S. as a way for the rest of the world to "catch up". He is a dangerous man to have as president. |
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runamok
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by garhkal
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:51 pm |
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bob_kemp wrote: Hi --
I guess I'll add another horror scenario to the mix. How much money do the governments make seizing property and fines on illegal drug users and dealers? Is it possible that making an addictive drug like nictine illegal will drive us all to the black markets and the property seizure laws will enable an even bigger wealth grab than they've gotten so far in taxation of tobacco?
Bob
Then i wonder where all those people will get housed.. our jails are already brimming. |
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garhkal
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by gilster
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:50 pm |
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runamok wrote:
Leery? That's the understatement of the year.
Ya' think? lmao.....
I try not to go too freakaziod libertarian/conservative on certain message boards - people tend to shut out what you typed......the word leery hopefully would encourage a reader to look further into Cap & Trade.....
ah, hell- sheep will be sheep....
Cap & Trade is pure socialist - fascist - (fill in your favorite 'ist') piece of sh1t
If Cap & Trade passes we are 110% EEF'ed |
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gilster
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by libertarian99
on Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:56 pm |
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gilster wrote: libertarian99 wrote:
If the tax collectors have a beef with anyone, it should be with the antismoking movement, whose sole purpose in life is to reduce the collection of tobacco taxes to zero.
I don't know about that....the anti-tobacco crowd opened the flood gates with their scare tactics and talking points to raise the taxes on tobacco far higher than I think any Dictator could wish for....
These guys - antis and gov't - are walking hand in hand in their quest for taxes and lucrative salaries.
Antis will not get paid if everyone quit smoking over night - neither the government receiving those juicy taxes....
They would have to find something else to tax - oh wait - they are working on it....
Global Warming - Carbon Emissions, etc.
What I'm saying is that it would be hard for lawmakers to stand up in front of the sheeple and admit they have screwed things up royally by stamping out tobacco and now they don't have the money to make their payroll, so they'll have to send SWAT teams into local neighborhoods to bust people with 10 tobacco plants in their yard. I can't imagine how they would word that without making themselves look impossibly stupid. |
Last edited by libertarian99 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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