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by JoshNJ
on Thu May 28, 2009 7:58 pm |
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ladyteal wrote: Correction?
Ms. Rand WAS A SMOKER!!!!!
Ayn Rand quit smoking in 1974, 8 years before her death. The reason she quit was a lung cancer diagnosis and surgery to remove the lung in 1974.
Ms. Rand died of heart failure at the age of 77.
She also rejected libertarianism, but was able to write so passionately about these topics.
I'm sure you've had a chance, but if you haven't, take a look at The Virtue of Selfishness. The chapter on the nature of government is on topic with what we are discussing here. |
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JoshNJ

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by ladyteal
on Thu May 28, 2009 8:20 pm |
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ladyteal

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by O2Lover
on Fri May 29, 2009 10:25 am |
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ladyteal wrote: Who the hell died and put Joshlyn in charge?
I thought this site belonged to Carlos?
But Joshlyn's post just proved my point about his lack of reading comprehension skills, now didn't it?
ROFLMAO
"It is not advisable, Joshlyn, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener."
Ayn Rand
Actually, Josh is not trying to be in charge. All I see is that he is following the guidelines set forth here:
http://www.smokinglobby.com/
Part of which states:
Quote: Smokinglobby.com is an online smoker's rights forum for both cigarette smokers and non-smokers alike to discuss fundamental individual freedoms and the right to choose whether or not to smoke. (Emphasis provided.)
As to the issue of civility among posters here, so far neither Josh nor I have taken personal shots at anyone or done anything other than stay on track with supported argument. Note that, among all of the posters engaged in this thread now, only you have resorted to childish antics of name calling (or handle modification) and attacks on the person, instead of just sticking to the issues.
I still don't understand why you don't welcome comments from posters like Josh and me. If you really think we are working for the so-called "antis" (I can't answer for Josh, but I certainly am not), why not take a free look at our "playbook". If we are not working for the antis, then we are helping YOU by sharing knowledge. If you look closely at what Josh has written in this thread, you can discern a possible course of action in attempting to reverse bans.
As for your comment elsewhere that you won't provide a rationale or legal support for your bald assertion that bans are unconstitutional because you don't want to tip your hand, I think you are just covering the fact that you don't have anything. If you really mean what you say, you are far overestimating your understanding of the law and far underestimating Josh's and mine. There are no secrets in constitutional law and any competent researcher can find all he needs without needing to know your strategy on the issues.
If you DO have current legal support for your assertion of unconstitutionality of smoking bans, show me just one case. I promise not to disclose its secrets to the "anti" forces. |
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O2Lover

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by Asmoker2
on Fri May 29, 2009 3:36 pm |
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O2Lover wrote:
If you DO have current legal support for your assertion of unconstitutionality of smoking bans, show me just one case. I promise not to disclose its secrets to the "anti" forces.
I'm gonna pipe in here, because a letter I received from the ACLU in 2006, that I thought was insignificant, just may have some value. Whilst they could not handle "my" case they stated "...[it] is in no way a reflection on the merits of your claim"
They further directed me to file a Title 42 U.S.C. Section 1983 lawsuit pro se to address civil rights violations.
A reader from another forum looked this up in a law library. It's under Segregation and Discrimination. I'm assuming it referenced the plight of the blacks; however, it's applicable in the plight of smokers as written.
Therefore, I'd say the treatment of smokers (and business owners who wish to cater to smokers) is absolutely UNCONSTITUTIONAL! |
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Asmoker2

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by O2Lover
on Fri May 29, 2009 5:08 pm |
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Asmoker2 wrote: O2Lover wrote:
If you DO have current legal support for your assertion of unconstitutionality of smoking bans, show me just one case. I promise not to disclose its secrets to the "anti" forces.
I'm gonna pipe in here, because a letter I received from the ACLU in 2006, that I thought was insignificant, just may have some value. Whilst they could not handle "my" case they stated "...[it] is in no way a reflection on the merits of your claim"
They further directed me to file a Title 42 U.S.C. Section 1983 lawsuit pro se to address civil rights violations.
A reader from another forum looked this up in a law library. It's under Segregation and Discrimination. I'm assuming it referenced the plight of the blacks; however, it's applicable in the plight of smokers as written.
Therefore, I'd say the treatment of smokers (and business owners who wish to cater to smokers) is absolutely UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
Thank you for telling us of that.
For reference, here is what 42 U.S.C. 1983 says:
Quote: Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer’s judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.
In your case, it has been more that two years since the ACLU suggested you filed suit based on this statute. I would assume that, by now, someone actually has. Can you cite one reported case which has declared that smoking is a right secured by the Constitution or other law? If so, you might be on to something here if you are deprived of such a right. So far, I have found no statute or case that states smoking to be a right. We are in very specific legal territory here. The mere "feeling" or individual interpretation that one has a right to do something doesn't cut it. The law is what counts.
Here is a reported case that addresses the constitutionality of a smoking ban in Maryland prisons, including an analysis of a claim under 42 U.S.C. 1983: http://www.palaborandemploymentblog.com/uploads/file/138_F_SUPP_2D_693_10-29-08_1052.pdf (Brashear v. Simms, 138 F.Supp.2d 693 (Dist. Ct. MD, 2001)) The Court denied a claim that looks to be similar to the one to which you refer in your ACLA letter.
In anticipation of an argument I am expecting, the case does not make a distinction between the constitutional rights of the incarcerated and free citizens, at least as smoking bans are concerned.
Here are some excerpts:
Quote: It should be perfectly obvious to any rational person that the State of Maryland, in view of the well-known harmful effects of secondhand smoke, has a legitimate interest in protecting the health of non-smokers forced to be its guests in correctional facilities. In fact, the Supreme Court has held that state actors could face liability under section 1983 if they do not protect non-smokers from smokers' secondhand smoke.
Quote: . . .decided cases have repeatedly rejected claims that prison anti-smoking policies violate the Equal Protection Clause, and for good reason. The reason, of course, is that the act of smoking is entitled to only a minimal level of protection under the Equal Protection Clause, as it is obviously not a fundamental right, nor is the classification between smokers and non-smokers a suspect one.
Quote: Obviously, given the Supreme Court's holding in Helling, supra, the State of Maryland has a legitimate interest in eliminating non-smokers' exposure to secondhand smoke in its prisons, and a rational way of accomplishing the State's goal in that regard is to prohibit sale or possession of tobacco products in prisons. Indeed, given the close confinement situation
in prisons, it is probably the only rational way. Thus, there is no viable equal protection claim stated. For cases that have reached the same result, see, e.g., Hills v. Stewart, 199 F.3d 1332, 1999 WL 970804 (9th Cir.1999), Johnson v. Saffle, 166 F.3d 1221, 1998 WL 792071 (10th Cir.1998), Webber v. Crabtree, 158 F.3d 460 (9th Cir.1998), and Harvey v. Foote, 92 F.3d 1192, 1996 WL 441776 (9th Cir.1996) (affirming dismissal for legal frivolity). There are more cases, but it would be pointless to cite
them, for they speak with one voice in rejecting claims such as the plaintiff's equal protection claim in this case.
For your reference, I have emboldened the terms Josh and I have used in this and the other thread, so you can see how the Court uses and applies them.
I found this case by Googling "42 U.S.C. 1983 smoking". Now, please post a case that supports the argument that smoking bans are prohibited under 42 U.S.C. 1983 or are unconstitutional. |
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O2Lover

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by activist0000
on Fri May 29, 2009 10:02 pm |
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O2Lover wrote: I found this case by Googling "42 U.S.C. 1983 smoking". Now, please post a case that supports the argument that smoking bans are prohibited under 42 U.S.C. 1983 or are unconstitutional. There is such a thing as a "case of first impression" though, right? The definition of that would be:
Case of first impression n. a case in which a question of interpretation of law is presented which has never arisen before in any reported case. Sometimes, it is only of first impression in the particular state or jurisdiction, so decisions from other states or the federal courts may be examined as a guideline.
A court sometimes has no legal precedent on which to base its decision because no similar cases have been brought before a court, right? I'm sure you guys are familiar with the term.
My question is what does it take for a case to be considered a "case of first impression?" How much difference does there have to be in the facts of the case or in the legal principles involved?
I'm thinking it might be more likely that a case of first impression could be initiated to challenge the overall government denormalisation program, coupled with excessive and punitive cigarette taxes, than it would be to challenge the bans.
We need one thread related to taxes, and one related to bans, because they are two very different legal issues. |
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activist0000

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by seabooty
on Sun May 31, 2009 7:46 am |
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I have to say it is curious that 2 seemingly lawyers are posting here and saying why our rights being violated is okay and we don't stand a chance.
I have a very popular website and forum dealing with offshore work (oil companies and the boating industry that supports it). A couple of years ago there was a huge push to get the boat crews into a union, before that, no oil company related boat companies were interested in the site or forum, but with the union push the companies had people on the site posting every day and even the US Coast Guard had a renewed interest in the sites. (All offshore oil boat companies are regulated by the US Coast Guard)
They managed to post enough fear into the boat crews to overcome the union. Even though the supply boat crews do not get benefits such as holidays, sick days, overtime or virtually any other benefit most people get. However, the fear factor worked, they made sure people would be afraid of being laid off or fired at a time when the companies were begging for employees.
Companies have big bucks to employ smart people to overcome the sheep, it normally works out great for them.
My suggestion, seek out attorneys who WILL fight for the rights of smokers, forget the posts of "who knows" on a forum. |
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seabooty

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by O2Lover
on Sun May 31, 2009 8:28 am |
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seabooty wrote: I have to say it is curious that 2 seemingly lawyers are posting here and saying why our rights being violated is okay and we don't stand a chance.
I have a very popular website and forum dealing with offshore work (oil companies and the boating industry that supports it). A couple of years ago there was a huge push to get the boat crews into a union, before that, no oil company related boat companies were interested in the site or forum, but with the union push the companies had people on the site posting every day and even the US Coast Guard had a renewed interest in the sites. (All offshore oil boat companies are regulated by the US Coast Guard)
They managed to post enough fear into the boat crews to overcome the union. Even though the supply boat crews do not get benefits such as holidays, sick days, overtime or virtually any other benefit most people get. However, the fear factor worked, they made sure people would be afraid of being laid off or fired at a time when the companies were begging for employees.
Companies have big bucks to employ smart people to overcome the sheep, it normally works out great for them.
My suggestion, seek out attorneys who WILL fight for the rights of smokers, forget the posts of "who knows" on a forum.
I completely agree with your suggestion. I also suggest that, before you pay a retainer for commencement of what will be expensive litigation, you first pay the attorney to give you a detailed written opinion of the merits of your claims and an evaluation of your chances for success. Then, get a second opinion. Be sure to look for a lawyer with a proven record litigating Constitutional issues and working up through the appellate system in similar cases.
As to the rest of your post, you are off the mark. I just enjoy a good debate and was hoping for a lively back-and-forth with people who might understand the issues and law. But now I find that this forum is a mere shadow of its former self. It used to rock. Even when things got nasty, it was still fun and very active. So many of the knowledgeable posters who could make a valid argument and stay on point are gone. There are so few people left here that there would be no point in putting in a negative propaganda effort that you suggest.
Further, that kind of effort would be pointless. In my opinion, bans are here to stay. No further effort from ban proponents is necessary. If anything, bans will only tighten until smoking is virtually eliminated. That is just my observation and you should not infer that I am in favor of bans. They run against my belief that government should be as small as possible and that this kind of regulation could put us on a slippery slope.
It's interesting to see that the old paranoia here is alive and well, though. |
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O2Lover

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by JoshNJ
on Sun May 31, 2009 8:56 am |
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seabooty wrote: I have to say it is curious that 2 seemingly lawyers are posting here and saying why our rights being violated is okay and we don't stand a chance.
All I have explained is whether a right to smoking exists and if the regulations are valid as written. If there was a chance to overturn them, I would have pointed it out. All arguments presented here do not amount to a strong challenge of them. I have looked at it from both sides and regardless of personal feelings, the current law doesn't violate existing rights. So fighting the ban based on the idea it is not legal to begin with falls on its face. Now, if you wanted to take a different approach and test a new theory I would be interested in analyzing that. You are working against the grain and fighting an uphill battle, so the analysis is going to sound like it is coming down hard on you. It's not fair that you have to deal with the burden of overturning an existing law, but so far all lawsuits and court decisions have established the proof that the bans are legally sound.
One last thing, I never said there is no chance and you shouldn't keep fighting. In fact, I hope that going over everything inspires someone to keep looking for an answer. |
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JoshNJ

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by seabooty
on Sun May 31, 2009 2:02 pm |
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I never named the "2 seemingly lawyers" however, josh and 02lover responded immediately. Hmmmmm.
Of course they are telling us why I am wromg.
02lover, you are welcome to post elsewhere |
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seabooty

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