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by infinitethoughts on Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:56 pm
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this earlier, or why it hasn’t happened yet……A Smokers Discrimination Lawsuit.

Because what exactly is going on here when a Major Hotel does not offer Smoking rooms for the smoker ? Discrimination pure and simple. Is the smoker doing anything illegal. Of course not. Then why the discrimination?

The hotels argument will be that it increases costs to make the room ready for a non-smoker. (I know because I just stayed in a San Francisco Holiday Inn, and there were 3 separate little reminders in the room, that anyone caught smoking will be forced to pay a $250.00 “cleaning” fee.)

Before I continue in that vein, I would like to bring up the incorrect health issue the Nannies love to hark upon. The health issue is thrown out the door. Why? Because anyone who is saying that a smelly room from the left over smoke has any health issues, seriously needs to have their head examined. There is NO left over second hand smoke. Period, just the smell. (And not even that if their Ventilation is working as it should.)

Now back to the hotels argument of increased costs to make the room ready. This is also a non-issue. Why? Because of the glaring fact of in room Ventilation systems that every single major Hotel room uses. Every one. The smoke does not sit and linger in the room long enough to eventually cause the smell that offends non-smokers. And if it does happen to smell (because of the Hotels faulty ventilation system), does that mean they would also charge $250.00 if the room is left with offensive Body Odor ??

So what are we left with? Hotels discriminate against smokers about the non-issue (because of in room Ventilation) of a possible smelly room?

Another issue the Fanatics like to bring up is that smoking indoors will go through the ventilation and into other rooms. Another stupid, saw-dust for brains comment. Since when does a ventilation system take air from one room and swap it with another ?

This is very dangerous territory if I were the Owner of a Chain of hotels. Discriminatory lawsuits are nothing to laugh at.

And that brings me to the end of my post.

Lets us be very clear on one point. This whole ludicrous Dis-crimination (inherent in the word is De-criminalizing) against smokers will not stop. In fact it is escalating. Since Big Phama has jumped on the band wagon, Millions and millions of dollars are now at the disposal of Health and Religious Gestapo Fanatics. (This war on tobacco has been going on for centuries from the Fanatical Christian side. It reminds them far too much about countries in the Far East and their thousands of years of use of the ancient medicinal herb, tobacco.)

Historically, the only way to stop Any discrimination, is thru the threat of a Lawsuit and the power of having to fork over tons of money.

Additionally we are talking about a Lawsuit against the Local Health Dept. cause they are the ones forcing Hotels to adapt this measure.

Their arguments in court would not stand a chance in court because of the Landmark decision in 1992, where a Federal Judge ruled the EPA had manipulated their studies on the effects of Second Hand Smoke.

I know this will have a huge impact and what needs to happen now, is anybody out there who is reading this and is a Pro Smoking Lawyer or Lawyers needs to pursue this. Along with righting a massive injustice, the money you stand to gain I’m sure will be a nice incentive.
Also what is needed is volunteer work by experts in the Ventilation field for testimony when the case goes to court.

If there aren’t any Lawyers on these groups reading this, then may I suggest to network and find one who sees the importance of going this route.

Thank you for taking the time to read this important plan of action. Feel free to point out anything I’ve missed or any counter arguments. This will make the case stronger. I am leaving my personal email below if anybody wants to work on this with me.

I’d like to end with pointing out what this Lawsuit would do, namely bring to the fore front every single asinine idea the Fanatics have. Who knows, this may even open the floodgates about the erroneous study by Doll and Hill in the 50's, as the famous Statistician Sir Ronald Fisher pointed out, that started all this happy horse shit in the first place.

MMHaffner
December 23, 2008.
California.
Personal email: Infinitethoughts@yahoo.com
(I'm unwinding up in a cabin, will answer emails in a couple of days.)
infinitethoughts Smoker
Smoker Joined: Mar 14, 2007 Posts: 155
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by JoshNJ on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:37 pm
infinitethoughts wrote:
I don’t know why I didn’t think of this earlier, or why it hasn’t happened yet……A Smokers Discrimination Lawsuit.

Because what exactly is going on here when a Major Hotel does not offer Smoking rooms for the smoker ? Discrimination pure and simple. Is the smoker doing anything illegal. Of course not. Then why the discrimination?

The topic of discrimination has been discussed thoroughly on other threads here, most recently I believe is this one. To put it simply, a smoker cannot sue for discrimination based on the theory presented.

Quote:
The hotels argument will be that it increases costs to make the room ready for a non-smoker. (I know because I just stayed in a San Francisco Holiday Inn, and there were 3 separate little reminders in the room, that anyone caught smoking will be forced to pay a $250.00 “cleaning” fee.)

A hotel may justify its fees with such as explanation or include it in the room's rate if they wish to. In a sense, the hotel is offering you a smoking room for an additional $250.00. Instead of upgrading to a suite or larger room, this could be your choice amenity. That is the business of a hotel chain and their business to charge a certain price or fee is within their discretion.

Quote:
And if it does happen to smell (because of the Hotels faulty ventilation system), does that mean they would also charge $250.00 if the room is left with offensive Body Odor ??

If the reason for the fee is a smoking smell and someone causes a different smell to attach to the carpet, upholstery, and linens, then I suppose that would be a reason to charge the additional cleaning fee. Although, you point out you are only warned of smoking in a room and so a hotel charging you for causing a unique smell in their rooms would fall under some other penalty or fee by the hotel management.

Quote:
This is very dangerous territory if I were the Owner of a Chain of hotels. Discriminatory lawsuits are nothing to laugh at.

Additionally we are talking about a Lawsuit against the Local Health Dept. cause they are the ones forcing Hotels to adapt this measure.

If a hotel is posting these smoking notices with a state statute or law, then yes the state or health department is where your lawsuit should be focused. However, that would be a longer and more difficult case to fight since the government is behind this rule. As you may already know, hotels do charge additional taxes and fees for its guests. And to top things off, unless you are resident of the state where this law exists, you may have trouble establishing standing to fight the case.

Quote:
Their arguments in court would not stand a chance in court because of the Landmark decision in 1992, where a Federal Judge ruled the EPA had manipulated their studies on the effects of Second Hand Smoke.

I think you are referring to the 1998 EPA Case where judge Osteen argued against the conclusions of the 1992 EPA report. There are a few studies out there to look at, here's another one. The argument against the law and faulty science is lost once a law is passed, but that does not mean one should stop trying to prove their case. It is just much harder to overturn an existing law than it is to make a new one.
JoshNJ Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Apr 12, 2006 Posts: 312
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by infinitethoughts on Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:48 pm
JoshNJ wrote:

The topic of discrimination has been discussed thoroughly on other threads here, most recently I believe is this one. To put it simply, a smoker cannot sue for discrimination based on the theory presented.9


I looked at the thread you referred to, the theory presented represents discrimination from the viewpoint of Insurance.

Of course a smoker can sue. It's simply a matter of stripping away of civil liberties of a citizen that smokes tobacco. Now. IF smoking were illegal then you would be correct. But we are talking about a legal product.

The subject title of this forum sums it up perfectly --SMOKERS RIGHTS. These rights are being trampled on and as we've seen in the past anytime a person's rights are trampled upon, legal action is the solution.

JoshNJ wrote:

Additionally we are talking about a Lawsuit against the Local Health Dept. cause they are the ones forcing Hotels to adapt this measure.
If a hotel is posting these smoking notices with a state statute or law, then yes the state or health department is where your lawsuit should be focused. However, that would be a longer and more difficult case to fight since the government is behind this rule. As you may already know, hotels do charge additional taxes and fees for its guests. And to top things off, unless you are resident of the state where this law exists, you may have trouble establishing standing to fight the case.

Right I agree with you. It is a case against a local government. Yes, longer and more difficult but not impossible.

JoshNJ wrote:

I think you are referring to the 1998 EPA Case where judge Osteen argued against the conclusions of the 1992 EPA report. There are a few studies out there to look at, here's another one. The argument against the law and faulty science is lost once a law is passed, but that does not mean one should stop trying to prove their case. It is just much harder to overturn an existing law than it is to make a new one.

Right. It is very hard to overturn an existing law. But what I like is it would put the spotlight on the manipulated studies.
infinitethoughts Smoker
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by infinitethoughts on Wed Dec 24, 2008 5:53 pm
Along the vein of Smokers Rights I just found this piece of information. Good news for Smokers.

1st WORLD CONFERENCE AGAINST PROHIBITION.
May 2008, Holland.
http://forces.org/News_Portal/news_viewer.php?id=1645

It is now glaringly clear that the dangerous mentality of zero tolerance, prohibition and lifestyle control has been embraced by governments. That mentality, steadily fueled by the pharmaceutical giants and the World Health Organization, is based on relentless propaganda and false scientific information by health institutions all over the world. The institutions of public health have undergone a transformation before our eyes: they have changed from entities providing care for patients to ideological centres that impose non-scientific beliefs, behaviour control and – literally – blackmail (as in denial of medical attention) on those who do not share a philosophical view that health trumps all rights and realities, including personal liberties, economies, and even real science.
infinitethoughts Smoker
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by Jay on Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:32 pm
Unfortunately, it's legal in the USA to discriminate against smokers and now the obese. There's no US law that makes discrimination based on lifestyle choices illegal.

I'm sure I'd have a definite case if I neva smoked but if a hotel denied me to pay to stay in a room for even one night based on racial reasons...discrimination against race is definitely illegal. But it should be illegal for a hotel to discriminate against someone for choosing to smoke.
Jay Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Jun 10, 2003 Posts: 647 Location: Chicago
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by infinitethoughts on Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:30 pm
Jay wrote:
Unfortunately, it's legal in the USA to discriminate against smokers and now the obese. There's no US law that makes discrimination based on lifestyle choices illegal.

I'm sure I'd have a definite case if I neva smoked but if a hotel denied me to pay to stay in a room for even one night based on racial reasons...discrimination against race is definitely illegal. But it should be illegal for a hotel to discriminate against someone for choosing to smoke.


I'd say it's "legal" now cause a Discrimination suit has not come up yet, but I'll bet as soon as one does, it won't be legal anymore.

Discrimination ultimately is discrimination. Using a legal product and experiencing discrimination is, exactly that.
infinitethoughts Smoker
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by CigarBoy on Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:59 pm
I will run it by the CigarBoy Legal Council and let you know what she says.
CigarBoy Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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by CigarBoy on Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:43 pm
The CBLC says she understands your frustration but legally you are off base. Smoking is not a fundamental right nor a protected priviledge. It is a private business and they can discriminate at will unless you are part of a protected class.

For instance, a hotel in Nashville may refuse to serve people from OH and that is legal, It is bad business practice, but legal. Now do that to a protected class and all legal hell will break lose.

Our only legal argument is based upon private property rights and that is a fundamental right.
CigarBoy Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Dec 09, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: Cincinnati, OH
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by infinitethoughts on Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:14 pm
CigarBoy wrote:
The CBLC says she understands your frustration but legally you are off base. Smoking is not a fundamental right nor a protected priviledge. It is a private business and they can discriminate at will unless you are part of a protected class.

For instance, a hotel in Nashville may refuse to serve people from OH and that is legal, It is bad business practice, but legal. Now do that to a protected class and all legal hell will break lose.

Our only legal argument is based upon private property rights and that is a fundamental right.


CB thanks for checking it out.

What I'm curious about is, you used the example of a Hotel refusing to serve people from Ohio for example. In this example, could not the person from Ohio sue the hotel based on Discriminating that they are from Ohio and win ?

So then in the same vein, what is the difference between a person from Ohio and a person that smokes?

What do you guys think?
infinitethoughts Smoker
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by Jay on Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:28 pm
If a Nashville hotel tried denying me a room because I'm from Illinois, I'd like to think that's illegal. I'd sue that hotel's behind big time.

I sure would like to know where it says it's legal for a hotel to deny someone a room for living in Ohio or whateva. I could even use the racial argument in my case and claim the hotel denied me a room just cause I'm a Black person.

I would like to know the name of this Nashville hotel. So I make sure I neva visit it in my life if I ever visit Nashville in the future.

I can see it being legal to deny me a hotel room if I smoke (although smokers deserve the same rights as I have as a bro). But denying someone a room for living outside of TN sounds like a Fkin laugh.

I'd probably win a case like that cause I'd could use my race as anotha reason why I'm suing the hotel.
Jay Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Jun 10, 2003 Posts: 647 Location: Chicago
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