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by LM
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:07 am |
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| I am amazed to find this site, and see what levels people are taking their addiction to. It is hard for me to believe that people still smoke these days, much less have websites devoted to defending it. The smokers I know are, at least, guilty and at least trying to quit. I feel a deep sadness for you and I wonder how you will look back on these days with regret when you are older, wiser, and realize that instead of being part of the solution, you have been a part of the problem. Whoever "B Williams" is on the post board seems to be a really angry and misdirected person. I hope that you can heal from the obvious pain that you are in, and bring breath and life back into your body and spirit. With love and well wishes, LM. |
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LM
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by irishguyincc
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:54 am |
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| Why should smokers feel guilty? Do you feel guilty? It is 'social engineers' like yourself that are the problem. People who choose to smoke are not a 'problem'. Freedom of choice is one of the great principles upon which this nation was founded. |
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irishguyincc
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by LM
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:30 am |
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irishguyincc wrote: Why should smokers feel guilty? Do you feel guilty? It is 'social engineers' like yourself that are the problem. People who choose to smoke are not a 'problem'. Freedom of choice is one of the great principles upon which this nation was founded.
I never said that anyone "should" feel guilty. I also never said that people are a problem, just their choices. Anyone with social change (for the better) in mind has compassion for the misinformed. I can sympathize with the programming that smokers have endured. As an American, I too, have been subject to the mindf*ck that is our culture. When I stand at a bus stop inundated with advertising, I feel mentally taken advantage of. And I know how you feel, as a woman, I am the first to want sovereignty from being told how to be and what is acceptable.
As for your so-called freedom of choice, I never understand why people bring up the rah-rah USA thing. As if there is an "us" and "them" within human beings. This country's founding principles have been corrupted the same as the Taliban corrupted the true principles of Islam. What does freedom of choice have to do with anything? If I choose to kill someone, is that a freedom that I should be afforded? Ironically, I just realized, in the US we are not allowed by law to kill ourselves, but we can smoke, eat or drink ourselves to death without any intervention.
Here is a quote that may illustrate my point: “YOU WIN, YOU LOSE. You win some, you lose some - that’s what they told me. Step right up to spin the wheel, see where your life ends up. Click, click, click. Congratulations, they said, you’ve won it all: freedom from struggle, from war, from reality. But I’m scared. The most protected generation in history - surveillance cameras, metal detectors, trillions in security spending - all watching my back; yet I tremble that one virus, one hurricane, one black-out, one dirty nuke could destroy this fragile system that I don’t understand but depend on. I am marginalized, protected, powerless. I have lost.” - Adbusters.org
As the saying goes, No one is free when others are oppressed. And your supposed freedom is keeping your body enslaved to an addiction that cannot, by the true spirit of the concept, being bringing you any real joy or happiness. I get that you guys don't want to be told what to do. Who does? There are other ways to rebel from the box we've been stuck in. You can be free in your body for one thing, you can help others to achieve that liberation and rock the system that injected you to the core with this smoking mentality so much that you have a bloody organization devoted to it.
So, yes, technically in American you are "free" to eat nothing but McDonald's, smoke until your lungs shrivel, inject your face with collagen, heck, cut off your balls if you really want to. But I am just wondering, do you feel free deep down in the depths of your soul? When you lay in bed at night, do you say, "Thanks God, for another day that I could light up"? Are you really that disconnected from your human nature?
For 20,000 generations we have lived in nature, only one have we lived in digital code. You have to admit to yourselves that this smoking thing is not a freedom but a limitation. |
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by irishguyincc
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 1:39 pm |
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Why do you think people that make choices that you personally disagree with are 'misinformed'? All I advocate is the idea that people have a right to choose how they live their life, so long as they do not harm others. That is the main principle upon which this nation was founded. Liberty and individual responsibility. People are allowed to make choices and then have to live with the consequences. It's that simple. I am not misinformed. I refuse to embrace the modern 'nanny state'. I do not need anyone to educate me or make my choices for me.
This isn't about just defending tobacco and peoples right to smoke. This is about protecting freedom. |
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irishguyincc
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by LM
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:12 pm |
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irishguyincc wrote: Why do you think people that make choices that you personally disagree with are 'misinformed'? All I advocate is the idea that people have a right to choose how they live their life, so long as they do not harm others. That is the main principle upon which this nation was founded. Liberty and individual responsibility. People are allowed to make choices and then have to live with the consequences. It's that simple. I am not misinformed. I refuse to embrace the modern 'nanny state'. I do not need anyone to educate me or make my choices for me.
This isn't about just defending tobacco and peoples right to smoke. This is about protecting freedom.
By saying you are misinformed, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. To actually admit that you have all the information and still choose to act this way would say a whole lot less about you and your social responsibility. There is no such thing as individual responsibility. There's one example of your misinformation. (No judgment, by the way, that is the way we have been raised. You may have to take a long hard look in the mirror before you can accept it and then take steps to heal.) No one person is an island. All of our actions, and I mean ALL of them, ripple out into the universe. When you toss your cigarette butt onto a patch of grass, that has a ripple affect. When you exhale deadly toxins, not to mention your own toxic waste out into the air that others breathe, there's another ripple. When you choose to purchase products from a company whose waste product has a profoundly negative effect on the environment, guess what, more rippling. Now multiply that times millions and millions of smokers worldwide and we've got something bigger and much more dangerous than, "What difference does it make if I smoke, I'm only one person. I'm only responsible to myself."
Here's a little information you may not have. The age of rugged individualism is passed. This is the quantum age, where energy is recognized as the main source of all there is. From the chair you are sitting on to the heart that beats inside of you, all things are a swirling mass of atoms, each vibrating at different frequencies. This is not the Man vs. Nature that our grandparents were taught. All things coexist in relation to each other, whether we are aware of it or not.
Perhaps it is time to fine tune your concept of responsibility and freedom. We all have to live with the consequences of your actions. So far all I've heard from you is some patriotic propaganda and that you would like to remain uneducated. ??? Perhaps those whiny little, "Leave me alone to wither in peace" voices NEED a nanny. |
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by redliner1989
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:59 pm |
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LM Wrote:
Quote: By saying you are misinformed, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.
Perhaps, but more likely you are trying to act superior. It often happens that the weak will say these types of things on a board like this, mostly because saying to anothers face would end in a severe beating.
LM Whined:
Quote: To actually admit that you have all the information and still choose to act this way would say a whole lot less about you and your social responsibility. There is no such thing as individual responsibility.
Perhaps painting with a broad brush says more about YOU, then what YOU might think. You know little about most people who smoke, but assume that you do. Shows an immature mind, but you probably already knew that. "There is no such thing as individual responsibility"? Perhaps you are more inclined to beleive in the "collective good". Too bad the USSR no longer exists. You would have fit in well there comrad.
Remainder of the Commies comments ignored. |
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redliner1989
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by irishguyincc
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:10 pm |
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The belief that there is no individual responsibility is one of the major flaws of this 'modern' society. I am afraid that I am very well educated, just not in the same way you have been. I have not allowed myself to believe that government is good and that others should be responsible for me. Individual liberty is not an antiquated, misguided notion as you would have us believe. If you want to help people that is fine, but do not use the force of government to achieve your goals. Everyone is entitled to make their own choices.
I guess this is me being patriotic. I want a return to a freer America. I want to scale back government interference in our lives. That is why I am a Libertarian. I, and many others, are fighting tirelessly to halt the growth and intrusiveness of government. I want you to be free to live your life. Choose not to smoke. I also want to be free to live my life in the manner I see fit. Even if that involves smoking. |
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irishguyincc
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by BWilliams
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:36 pm |
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LM, you ignorant slut.
Smoking is no longer a habit; it is no longer a choice, or a pastime - it has been elevated to the status of a cultural definition. Smokers are now a clearly delineated group of people, with their own wants, needs and yes, rights. Lobbyists fight both for and against the Smoking culture in Washington; and this struggle only continues to consolidate and validate the culture.
Since Smoking has become a culture, due in no small part to the recent controversy around Smokers rights, it has taken on certain distinguishing characteristics. I can assure you none of these characteristics include guilt or shame.
The trials of this culture, whether you like it or not, will define the course of American history. If we allow gov't to ban or censor this culture in any way, precedent will be set to ban or limit others. Maybe that's not so bad. Hell, personally I don't care if they ban same-sex marriages. I don't care if blacks have to ride on the back of the bus. These issues don't effect me. But people fight for these issues because of the larger question of individual freedom and the rights of every citizen in a free society. And that is an issue I would fight for.
So, when you ask a Smoker not to light up, you might as well take that match and toss it in a oven filled with jews, because you, LM, are a Nazi at heart. Hell, go ahead and bash a few gays and send the blacks to the back of the line you filthy, disgusting pervert. All you care is that people do exactly what you want them to do, and you're happy if the gov't passes legislation as long as it backs your argument.
Well, one day the gov't is going to pass a law which says you can't shove any more sporks up your ass, and then where would you be? Alone, because the rest of us were probably already banned from the restaurant. |
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by LM
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:46 pm |
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redliner1989 wrote: ]Perhaps, but more likely you are trying to act superior. It often happens that the weak will say these types of things on a board like this, mostly because saying to anothers face would end in a severe beating.
Perhaps painting with a broad brush says more about YOU, then what YOU might think. You know little about most people who smoke, but assume that you do. Shows an immature mind, but you probably already knew that. "There is no such thing as individual responsibility"? Perhaps you are more inclined to beleive in the "collective good". Too bad the USSR no longer exists. You would have fit in well there comrad.
Remainder of the Commies comments ignored.
Weak argument you've got there, redliner. You're calling me a communist??? Is that the best you can do? It's interesting that you and irishguy both bring up these strong political notions. I have never once mentioned Big Brother in my arguments. Did you actually read what I wrote? Where did I mention wanting governmental control? It's the opposite that I want. In fact, isn't it patriots like you and irishguy who are all for that kind of thing, getting the US government all up in your business?
What I'm talking about is not political or governmental at all, what a male assumption to make. I am talking about a human compassion, for yourself and for those around you. Where is your compassion? |
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LM
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by redliner1989
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:59 pm |
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Comrad LM whimpered:
Quote: Weak argument you've got there, redliner. You're calling me a communist???
In previous post LM boldly asserted:
Quote: There is no such thing as individual responsibility
Stalin would've been proud to know his teaching lives on long after his death! |
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redliner1989
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