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by JoshNJ on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:11 pm
infinitethoughts wrote:
Maybe I should have been more clear in what I was saying. When I said it set's a precedent, I was talking about the Bar owners, not the law.

In other words, a bar owner in North Carolina sees that a bar owner in Ohio won his case on the basis that by law, all he has to do his follow the Statute. If a smoker lights up in his bar, all he has to do is inform the smoker he can't smoke. Thats it. It's not his responsibility to enforce or fine the smoke. That is the States responsibility.
For any bar owner in Ohio, the statute is still clear that "A person who manages, operates, or controls a restaurant or bar in which smoking is prohibited shall direct a person who is smoking to extinguish the lighted tobacco product." This does require a bar owner to do more than just announce or inform someone that s/he can't smoke. Direct a person is open to interpretation, but in the case that was cited by you, the situation was that the patron left the bar with the lit cigarette still sitting there. If a bar owner tells someone to put out a cigarette and they continue smoking and then someone shows up to issue a fine, if the patron says he wasn't told, then the bar owner gets hit with a fine. If the patron accepts responsibility, then he will receive the fine. The responsibility is still on the owner to act, not just to give notice.

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Now, if the State then decides to fine the bar owner, for following it's own rules, by the way, the State itself is breaking it's own rules.
Which is a big no no.Very Happy
The problem with that theory is that you are under a false impression that just telling a smoker not to smoke and that person disobeying the notice makes everything legal. If a bar owner encounters someone who does not extinguish a lighted tobacco product and ignores it, they are not in compliance with the statute. That is why I pointed to the specific facts of this case because it is limited to those circumstances.

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On this basis, the Laws in North Carolina and Ohio are exactly the same. Which means that a Bar owner in North Carolina would win their case.
Even if the laws are the same verbatim, it is still a different jurisdiction and subject to different authority and interpretation of those laws. If that was true for symmetrical state laws, a person would never know which is the right or wrong way to handle a situation. Same goes for those enforcing those laws. The control and power of a state's law is limited to their own territory.

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The same thing happened with a case in Italy or Spain, I'd have to find the case. It's seems one can use this tactic across the board.
I would not compare laws in other countries with ours, let alone members of the European Union. They follow a different constitution or mandate for their countries. Also, there may be a treaty in effect between Italy or Spain that governs the case you were looking at.

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Which is my point. Any method that works against a Corrupt Syndicate (the State is a Private Corporation which is listed on Dun and Bradstreet and therefore illegally imposes fines against private citizens) and also enforcing a Corrupt Statute (SHS is harmless) should be used.
I am not saying you should abandon this method, I was only cautioning you not to give a false guarantee that this exploit will work. I explained why this may up costing a business owner the fines you think they won't have to pay. On top of that, if an owner has to take time off to fight multiple violations in court, they may end up losing more money trying to prove your idea is right.
JoshNJ Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Apr 12, 2006 Posts: 312
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by infinitethoughts on Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:19 pm
JoshNJ wrote:
For any bar owner in Ohio, the statute is still clear that "A person who manages, operates, or controls a restaurant or bar in which smoking is prohibited shall direct a person who is smoking to extinguish the lighted tobacco product." This does require a bar owner to do more than just announce or inform someone that s/he can't smoke. Direct a person is open to interpretation, but in the case that was cited by you, the situation was that the patron left the bar with the lit cigarette still sitting there. If a bar owner tells someone to put out a cigarette and they continue smoking and then someone shows up to issue a fine, if the patron says he wasn't told, then the bar owner gets hit with a fine. If the patron accepts responsibility, then he will receive the fine. The responsibility is still on the owner to act, not just to give notice.

Let's keep this simple, this discussion is going on way to long and I'm getting tired of it.

We both agree if a bar owner in Ohio informs a smoker they can't smoke, then the bar owner has fulfilled his legal obligation and if he then gets a fine this is an illegal fine.

Yes? No?

If you don't agree, I respect your opinion and I'd like to drop it.
infinitethoughts Smoker
Smoker Joined: Mar 14, 2007 Posts: 155
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by dumpstermcnuggets on Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:56 pm
Slearwig wrote:
I know when L.A. banned smoking at County beaches, there was an attempt to include "carrying a pack of cigarettes on one's person" as a violation whether or not you actually lit a cigarette, but that part was dropped from the measure.


LA County Commissioners really proposed that language, when the bill banning smoking at beaches was first drafted?!? Holy cow, that's beyond ridiculous. And as for the person who mentioned the LA outdoor patio smoking ban for restaurants and places that aren't 18 and over being to de-normalize the act of smoking(and in essence increase the ridiculous hatred towards smoking), you are absolutely right that this is another hidden point that antis aim for when these bans are proposed!
dumpstermcnuggets Enthusiastic Smoker
Enthusiastic Smoker Joined: Nov 06, 2006 Posts: 312 Location: Health Fascism Capital of the Midwest, Illinois
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by Cancionila on Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:45 pm
I certainly don't know what the laws are concerning this sort of thing in NC but it may be worth looking into if you are serious about doing something. I've considered doing the same here in MN but we are just behind CA when it comes to nannying liberals per capita.
Cancionila Newbie
Newbie Joined: Mar 11, 2010 Posts: 13
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