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by crackerjack
on Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:13 am |
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runamok wrote: crackerjack wrote: What we need to do is bring to light what the extinction of the tobacco industry as a whole will do to everybody.
You start talking about having to raise 200 + billion more in taxes from those who never (80%)or no longer (20%) smoke and you will be heard.
Talking about it to who? What vehicle do you propose we use to deliver that message to the masses
The internet .....
What we could do is post coments onto online news articles. People read their news online now forinstance I read The Sun-Sentinel online even though the paper gets delivered. My wife loves the coupons..lol
There is a trick to working people and I have been trying to get this message across on this forum.
Don't push unpopular agendas!!! push popular agendas.
Find the popular agenda that will suit your cause and them push it.
examples
Smokers rights = unpopular
Taxing consumer goods = unpopular
So lets say you call yourself Citizens for Smokers Rights. my prediction is it will fail but call yourself Citizens Against Increased Taxation on Consumer Goods and suddenly you have a whole new audience
Work the Tax angle not the smokers right angle and in the end you will gain ground with both.
I just picked up on this from watching and listening to a lot of political shows on the TV and Radio so I'm no expert on strategical politics but we can all work on a strategy and then employ it. |
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crackerjack
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by crackerjack
on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:01 am |
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Now granted this is an article in a Canadian newspaper ( short notice) but look at the comment I posted there.
I got to slam taxes on cigarettes and lay the blame on anti smoking all in the name of saving health costs and increasing tax revenue both popular subjects.
what I did not do is take the side of smokers rights
http://www.tbnewswatch.com/news/Default.aspx?cid=66405 |
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crackerjack
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by bob_kemp
on Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:56 am |
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Hi --
crackerjack, I read your comment there and you are nicer to those who would punish us than I care to be.
I added a comment there myself, although the "administration" hasn't approved it yet, and here's a copy of what I wrote...
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Hi --
I see a lot of assumptions going on in these discussions of punitive tobacco taxation.
I see the assumption that tobacco users want to quit. I see the assumption that it is OK for government to decide what's good and bad for us and punish us if we refuse to comply. It is assumed that tobacco use is invariably bad, altogether, and that there are no positive benefits. I see that it is assumed that we must purchase tobacco. It is assumed that tobacco use costs others and injures others than the user.
It is a fact that nicotine causes the brain to emit dopamine which has an anti-anxiety effect. Yes, using tobacco is indeed calming. How many anti-anxiety drugs will the government have to pay for to replace the tobacco effects?
Why would tobacco users turn to the black markets when they can grow their own tobacco at home? I grow my own tobacco and I refuse to pay the punishment taxes and you can too!
If you want to buy seeds, I have some for sale. Protest the government punishment in a positive fashion and grow your own tobacco at home!
Bob Kemp
GYOtobacco@yahoo.com
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As you can see I blended your approach with a more defiant one. I questioned their assumptions across the board. Most of these anti-smoking types have the same the same arrogance as anyone with a religion for or against others' behaviors. Take MADD mothers as an excellent example.
When I am pushed, I push back - only 10 times harder.
Bob |
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by runamok
on Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:39 pm |
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I've been banging around internet forums and comment sections concerning tobacco issues for about the last 10 years or so and there are some things I can tell you from experience.
I started out all full of piss and vinegar and, by god, I was going to set these people straight. As soon as they read my post/comment, they would see the light.
What I found out was that the vast majority out there (including smokers) have been fully indoctrinated by anti-smoking's incessant and prolific propaganda. Anti never sleeps. It is a virtual army that works 24/7 and has a bottomless war chest.
Smoking is not seen as just a "bad" habit anymore (whatever that even means). It is a FILTHY, DISGUSTING and IMMORAL practice that MURDERS tens of thousands of non-smokers annually and how can anyone put a price on THAT!
There may have been a time back in the early, or even mid, 90's (pre-internet for all practical purposes) when using logic and truth against what was then just an upstart movement, may have had a helpful affect. When anti got their hands on the MSA loot in '98, that was game over.
Their demise will be gradual and fairly quiet but they WILL be forced to shit in their own nest at some point in the future. Governments will slowly wean them off of public funding and they will fade away for the most part. Sadly, much of the collateral damage done in the meantime will be difficult to repair and some of it will be irreversible. |
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runamok
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by crackerjack
on Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:08 pm |
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Hi Bob
Somebody once said that Diplomacy is the art of telling people to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.  |
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crackerjack
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by bob_kemp
on Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:35 pm |
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Hi --
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" whilst reaching for a rock....Lord Talleyrand, I believe.
In any case, the rabid anti-smokers aren't being diplomatic with me so I have no requirement to respond with diplomacy. They are hostile, in my face and aggressive.
I can return the favor, being more civil than they are, but I mean to make them a little shocked that anyone could possibly deny their demands and actually be pissed off a little. Ok, a lot.
Bob |
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by libertarian99
on Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:04 pm |
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garhkal wrote: How exactly will they tax grow your own?>?
I share your concerns about publicity, Pete Gatti. I realize it's tough for successful people to keep quiet about their accomplishments, but we would all be better off to stay under the local radar. |
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libertarian99
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by libertarian99
on Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:09 pm |
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runamok wrote: What I found out was that the vast majority out there (including smokers) have been fully indoctrinated by anti-smoking's incessant and prolific propaganda. Anti never sleeps. It is a virtual army that works 24/7 and has a bottomless war chest.
Smoking is not seen as just a "bad" habit anymore (whatever that even means). It is a FILTHY, DISGUSTING and IMMORAL practice that MURDERS tens of thousands of non-smokers annually and how can anyone put a price on THAT! |
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libertarian99
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by bob_kemp
on Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:11 am |
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Hi --
libertarian99, I have never seen such an effective demonization campaign on a national level in my life.
I sell tomato and pepper transplants in the spring and this year I also sold tobacco transplants. I've sold tobacco plants in the past, but this is the first time that when I told someone what it was, they physically shied away. "OH NO, I WOULD NEVER GROW THAT!". It became a scary plant. I can't count how many times customers asked me if it was legal to grow tobacco plants. How big of a step is it from a public perception of illegality to a legislative dictate?
Bob |
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by libertarian99
on Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:20 pm |
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bob_kemp wrote: I can't count how many times customers asked me if it was legal to grow tobacco plants. How big of a step is it from a public perception of illegality to a legislative dictate?
Our legislators don't waste time thinking about these issues in any reasonable sort of way. They just rubber stamp antismoking bills without a second thought. We have no reason to believe that anyone will respect our personal property line, because the general public has accepted the idea that smoking is a special issue and they feel it is not only justified, but obligatory to disregard the Constitution on tobacco issues.
I have neighbors who see my tobacco plants and apparently don't have a clue what they are. The police really don't seem to be paying attention right now. We are better off if the people around us don't realize what we are doing.
The last thing we need is a bunch of loonies latching onto this issue, which they will invariably do if they figure out they can keep their paychecks coming by going after home growers. |
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libertarian99
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