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by Guest
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 9:03 pm |
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BWilliams wrote:
Hell, personally I don't care if they ban same-sex marriages. I don't care if blacks have to ride on the back of the bus. These issues don't effect me. So, when you ask a Smoker not to light up, you might as well take that match and toss it in a oven filled with jews, because you, LM, are a Nazi at heart. Hell, go ahead and bash a few gays and send the blacks to the back of the line you filthy, disgusting pervert. All you care is that people do exactly what you want them to do, and you're happy if the gov't passes legislation as long as it backs your argument.
Leave it to BWilliams to take the low ground. Insults without merit, self-contradictions, generalizations, and yet another referral to governmental control.
First, what's with the constant referral to government and legislation? I am talking about consideration for the people with whom you share the planet. Not to mention your own pathetic spirit, choking and gasping for air beneath your blatant and obvious anger and fear. It is one thing to do something good because you have no choice but to obey some law, it is quite another to act out of sheer common decency.
Second, are you homophobic and racist or aren't you? You say you don't care about blacks and gays, then you say I am the Nazi racist homophobe. ??????? What the hell are you talking about? I refer once again to the fact that there is no individual existence. If there was, I'd like to see how you fare on a desert island all alone. Another weak argument.
I'm loving this little chat we're having, here, BW, but this time, do you think you could respond with something other than a potty mouth and some random insults? Give me something real to cling to. At least irshguy has a real argument about freedom, you are just slinging hash. |
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by redliner1989
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:10 pm |
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LM danced away from her first statement, which, for the readers I will repost below:
Quote: There is no such thing as individual responsibility
Then LM runs from the statement by trying to rearrange it to read:Quote: I refer once again to the fact that there is no individual existence.
Do not attempt to invade my "existence". Mine is more individual then yours obviously ever could be. Doing what "the crowd" wants me to do. Dressing and thinking like "the collective" ain't my idea of livin doll.....
Go ahead Comrad LM, keep ranting, your Socialistic attitude comes through loud and clear.
OBTW, Historically your type has been defeated time after time after time after time and so on and so on.............. |
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redliner1989
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Joined: Nov 06, 2003
Posts: 133
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by BWilliams
on Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:39 pm |
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Quote: First, what's with the constant referral to government and legislation? I am talking about consideration for the people with whom you share the planet.
CONSIDERATION FOR OTHERS?!?!?! You want to ban our culture and ask for laws to limit smoking. Sounds like you only want to consider your point of view as being right, and we all better goose step into line or else.
Quote: Second, are you homophobic and racist or aren't you? You say you don't care about blacks and gays, then you say I am the Nazi racist homophobe. ??????? What the hell are you talking about? I refer once again to the fact that there is no individual existence.
You missed the point - I don't care about that group of people, since I don't belong to either culture, but I do care about their rights being stripped away by people like you.
Quote: individual existence.
There is only individual existence. Stop hugging that tree, get off the kibbutz and join the free world a$$wipe.
Potty mouth my a$$ |
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BWilliams
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Posts: 1082
Location: New York City
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by LM
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:11 am |
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You seem to be asking for more clarification about the individualism thing. To truly understand balance is to embrace all aspects of the spectrum, we are both individual in some respects and interconnected to all there is. We cannot be one or the other, we are both. Constant stimulation is unhealthy, as is total isolation. Babies who do not get touched will die. We are social beings by nature. As we need each other not just to thrive but to survive, we are not living truly "individual" lives.
I am wondering why make the assumption that my contention is to get everyone to conform. Where did you read that in what I wrote? What I am saying is the exact opposite. I believe that you are hiding behind a false notion of "freedom", which to you seems to mean that you can do whatever you want without regard for others or consequence.
It seems like you are yearning for something to rebel against, by professing your undyingly individual existence and the desire to be a nonconformist. I am hereby inviting you to do that by turning from the corporate government that sold you this addiction, all tied up in a pretty red white and blue package marked "Liberty". It seems that by buying into their product, you are conforming, just like they wanted you to.
Perhaps I am a Socialist, I don't really know, I'm not one for political labels, another way of fitting people into government created boxes. What I do know is that I, like you, and probably most everyone out there, want to be free, and learn to coexist effectively. And I, unlike you, want others to have the opportunity to see how they have been lied to and sheepherded into this pathetic state of being.
I have yet to hear you offer up any compassion or care for anyone, including yourself. So far, you have told me that you may resort to violence if this conversation were in person, and you have done little more than repeat my words back to me. I'm assuming you are a man, since you called me weak, a typically narcissistic American male attitude. I feel sorry for you. You must have quite a love life, what a prize you are with your tar encrusted teeth and macho sarcasm. Every woman's dream. |
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LM
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by irishguyincc
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:25 am |
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You must not be reading what I have written very carefully.
I[i] believe that you are hiding behind a false notion of "freedom", which to you seems to mean that you can do whatever you want without regard for others or consequence. [/i]
What I said was that people should have the right to do what they want, provided they do not harm others. And the concept of individual responsibility means that one must live with the consequences of one's actions.
You apperantly do not understand the concept of liberty of which I speak. I am not using it as a government slogan, I believe in the concept of true liberty and the rights of man. I do not advocate government interference in our lives, as you accused me of earlier. On the contrary, I believe that the government that governs least governs best.
I recommend that you view a couple of websites that will explain my views on things:
www.lp.org
www.harrybrowne.org |
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irishguyincc
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by LM
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:35 am |
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BWilliams wrote: You want to ban our culture and ask for laws to limit smoking. Sounds like you only want to consider your point of view as being right, and we all better goose step into line or else.
Okay, I will say this again for those with the damaged brain cells. When did I ever mention anything about laws? Check your facts, my dear and don't f*cking make assumptions. I do not put myself under the jurisdiction of the United States government.
I don't want to "ban" anything. I want people to come around to it themselves, without governmental intervention. That's why I'm talking to you. I am just asking my fellow humans (not Americans, humans) that I can be able to walk down the street without having to taste their nasty exhale. I would like to see the people I love who are suffering from smoking-induced illnesses to come into their bodies and stick around a little longer. I would like to be able to visit the emegency room if I have to without having to wait in line behind dozens of elderly ex-smokers with a myriad of health problems from years of nicotine sucking. I would like corporate America brought down, tobacco industries and all. And most of all, I would like people to question authority, especially the culture that we're drowning in. I wish you could feel the freedom I feel from having a healthy body. Smoking is just a way to stop yourself from feeling. Don't you think that's sad?
BWilliams wrote: You missed the point - I don't care about that group of people, since I don't belong to either culture, but I do care about their rights being stripped away by people like you.
This whole Howard Stern badass thing is getting tired, dontcha think? I thought you might be worth the discussion, but you're about to lose me with the I don't care about people thing. I wonder to myself the same thing for you as for redliner, what kind of relationships must you have with a vacant soul like that? Are you really getting any with that ugliness? Perhaps you smoke because you don't feel loved, want to be cool and fit in, just like the Marlboro Man.
When you cut off arterial flow to an organ, the organ dies. When you cut off the flow of nature into people's lives, their spirit dies. Just that simple. Perhaps that stick in your hand is sedating a kind of "separation anxiety". Where's your heart, man? |
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LM
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by LM
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:48 am |
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irishguyincc wrote: I believe that the government that governs least governs best.
Right on, IG. Thank you for the constructive information, a refreshing change from the random outbursts of BW and redliner. The Libertarian philosophy is a noble one. I agree with most of it, it seems that you and I share quite a few common beliefs. What I disagree with is the idea that your actions affect only you. Others have to live with the consequences. And smoking is harmful to others, as long as we are all breathing the same air. |
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LM
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by irishguyincc
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:03 am |
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| Well, I for one have a wonderful relationship with a wonderful woman. Of course it helps that we see eye to eye on things; she's also a libertarian. And yes I smoke. And she doesn't. I smoke in private places, where everyone there knows the 'risk' and only enter if they so choose. I am hurting no one with my choice to smoke. |
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irishguyincc
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by BWilliams
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:32 am |
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LM wrote: When you cut off arterial flow to an organ, the organ dies. When you cut off the flow of nature into people's lives, their spirit dies.
What the hell are you talking about?
You say you don't want to bring gov't into this issue. You say you are "asking" us smokers to respect your opinion because you don't want us smoking around you.
OK, let's forget the fact that your former statements imply endorsement of the current state legislation against smokers. Let's leave gov't out of it.
Why then don't you respect our opinions and rights, and let smokers walk down the street and smoke wherever they want? Since when did someone else's opinion become the wrong one simply because it didn't align to yours.
You seem to think your way of life is the right one, and we all have it wrong. You are egotistical, domineering and almost utterly devoid of any capacity towards empathy. On top of it, you seem to completely lack any semblance of a sense of humor.
LM wrote: I am just asking my fellow humans (not Americans, humans) that I can be able to walk down the street without having to taste their nasty exhale. I would like to see the people I love who are suffering from smoking-induced illnesses to come into their bodies and stick around a little longer. I would like to be able to visit the emegency room ...
Your statements all start with "I want" and "I like" - you're all about ME ME ME and you don't want to think of the other side of the coin. Maybe smokers want to walk down the street without you complaining and coughing up your self-righteous beatitudes.
I can only assume you're a woman and single, and from the sound of it, staying that way. |
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BWilliams
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Posts: 1082
Location: New York City
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by LM
on Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:29 pm |
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Took you a while, there, BW. Finally a real argument. As for humor, I can make SNL references, too, but you weren't saying much else.
I don't really know what the current legistative status is, and I could give a rats's ass. I don't really follow issues in the smoking world. I do know how much more I enjoy life in California's smoke-free establishments than I did when I lived in the Midwest. I can now go dancing without spending the whole next morning in a respiratory hangover from the second hand smoke. You can compare me to the government if you want, but as far as I'm concerned, it's just coincidence.
As far as whose rights are more valid, in this instance, it is not about rights as much as logistics. Officially as humans, we all have the right to do whatever we want. What I am questioning is the merit of what you want, and what's behind that. What are the consequences of your actions to you and others, and why is it that you don't care?
Smoking is not a truly self-deprecating activity that can be compared to other destructive behaviors.. If I am an obsessive compulsive handwasher, and I walk down the street next to someone who isn't, they don't have to directly feel the effects of my actions. For those in touch with their spiritual nature, indirectly, yes they are affected, on a spiritual, collective human being level, yes. If you want to get really technical, it is a bit like smoking because the excess waste produced by the handwashing goes back to the environment that we all share. However, if you smoke, the affect is quite a bit more direct. Your smoke adds to the air that others consume. Multiply your smoke times the millions of others who do it and there's a massive assault on the environment.
I makes more sense to say that all people are welcome at a certain establishment. However if you want to stand on the tables and scream loudly, that is inconsiderate and you can't do that here. Likewise, if you want to blow smoke on people, you'll have to go somewhere else.
You are lumping smoking into a category of choice with everything else but it is not the same as choosing to wear purple one day, or what kind of house you want to live in or what kind of music you like, or what emotion you're having today. These things do not have a negative affect on other people. Smoking does. I personally happen to be allergic to smoking and have a very sensitive respiratory system. I hate that when I walk out of the door of a building, my first breath of air is the exhalaled smoke of a crowd of people smoking, and then I have to spend the next five minutes sneezing and coughing. How do you feel about negatively affecting my health? I have a friend with macular degeneration, a form of blindness, from years of living with a smoker. My Grandfather died at 52 from smoking. They started smoking decades before we know all the lies we've been told by tobacco companies, and by the time they got the right information, it was too late.
Of course my statements begin with 'I', haven't you been harping repeatedly that you don't want to be spoken for? I can only really speak for myself. And calling me self-righteous is a typical defense of those who know deep down that they are wrong.
I want to know what is so great about smoking that does not hide behind "My rights as an American" or some other bullshit. Give me the core, tell me what you're really feeling. Do you honestly feel good about your health? don't you think the state of your body is important?
P.S. I am ecstatically married to a remorseful ex-chainsmoker. How about you?
P.P.S. To irishguy: Are you actually from Ireland? All of my friends from Ireland smoke and say that they were just brought up to smoke, the majority of people there do it. What do you think? |
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LM
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